I have almost too much to talk about this morning, so I’ll just cover the basics. Yesterday was a notable day. MPR and Northland’s NewsCenter hosted a “Economic Prospects for the Arrowhead” forum at the Radisson in Duluth. Immediately before that the state House voted to strip $60 million in local mining revenue (the Iron Range equivalent of property taxes) from an IRRRB economic fund. In short, the future is playing out very rapidly and I take away two simple truths, both of which I mentioned in my Sunday column:
- The Iron Range region, in accordance with Duluth and other nearby towns, needs to rejigger its approach to economic and community development.
- Whatever we don’t do for ourselves will be done for us, less appealingly, by the legislature and other interests that do not and will not understand Iron Range history, culture or status quo politics. If the Johnson economic fund isn’t raided this year, it will be next year or the year after.
I mentioned last night that regardless of your political stripe, and I know readers here run the gamut of ideologies, we share an enemy here on the Iron Range. As unique as we are, other places share the same enemy. That enemy is mediocrity. Mediocrity thrives when we wait for big talkers to fix our own problems for us. Whether those big talkers are big business developers or federal politicians, their ability to help us is fundamentally limited. The city of Duluth is doing better than it has in decades because of small, self-starting ideas and initiatives. The city of the Iron Range — and we are a small city, similar in size to Duluth, stretched out over a long iron formation separated only by trees and tired attitudes — must also generate and support new ideas. The change will start with a feeling, and will be followed by results.
From his comments last night, I can sense Commissioner Tony Sertich of the IRRRB knows that big things must happen soon. Legislators in St. Paul know they can’t hold the line for much longer. This is a major moment in Range history. We must not waste our last, best chance. I predict a major push to fix our declining school systems and pour remaining resources into local development is on the way. I intend to strongly support such a plan.
I’ll have more on the forum later. Off to work…
It’s been proven over and over again that without parental involvement you can throw $15,000 per student per year for education with NO results. With parental supervision you can have well below the national average paid per student and have great results. Throwing money at education doesn’t work, but it’s been the main tool for Education Dept for years.
I’ve stated before my concerns about local development being left up to our politicians. They haven’t been able to diversify our region in 40 years but somehow now they’ll figure it out. Make our area a place where entrepreneurs can make some money and jobs plus diversity will happen.
I know the mantra for the DFL is hate the rich and tax them to death, but ask yourself has a poor person ever hired you, given you a weekly paycheck and paid a major chunk of your healthcare bill? Mining, plus servicing the mines has to lead our way out…. Then add an environment where business men can succeed and we’ll be on our way.
Leaving that to our elected officials will keep us right where we are today.
Well put K Edwards.
C.O.
The kind of education spending I’m talking about would focus on curriculum and achievement. Right now many to most Range students don’t have access to higher math, foreign languages or technical education. Coupled with the fact that we’re developing a pretty big gap in reading scores based on income levels, I’d say we have a lot of work to make our schools competitive in the global economic marketplace.
Agreed on parental involvement. A return to a centralized family structure that promoted total self-reliance would eliminate the need for some programs. That can’t be mandated. In many cases, that can’t be done. Cultural change is difficult. Blanket spending doesn’t work in and of itself. That’s very true. But what’s the alternative to trying different ways to address the lack of college and career preparedness?
This often returns to a difference in philosophy, but I believe that we get the government we deserve. Government represents the kind of citizens we are. The government can do many important and great things; I believe it should. The government can try and fail. The government can promise and blather and fail. The government can cheat and lie. Some of this is in the eye of the beholder, but that’s where I’m coming from. Government can be changed if people want to change it. Once the public good is removed from public control, we become a subject people.
“It’s been proven over and over again that without parental involvement you can throw $15,000 per student per year for education with NO results”
No it hasn’t. To the contrary it HAS been proven that putting money into early childhood education programs like headstart has a dramatic impact on how well kids learn. And that is not only for the kids in the program, but for their classmates as they get older. Kids who can read and do the work are much less likely to disrupt the classroom.
Even if you want to just give up on the kids who don’t have enough “parental support”, there is a larger problem here. Its no longer just the futures of kids at the bottom of the ladder that are being sacrificed. The kids who have all that “parental support” are getting a second rate education that is not competitive with the rest of the world.
There is plenty of evidence that spending more money can and does produce a better education. Just ask the parents elsewhere who pay to send their kids to well-financed private schools.
“Make our area a place where entrepreneurs can make some money and jobs plus diversity will happen.”
The way you make money is by having a productive work force. Of course if your business is only competing against those in the next town over, that might not matter much. Everyone has to deal with same workforce. But if you are bringing money into the region by competing for business across the state, country or world, you better have a workforce that is world class. That means either training your own or being able to attract those employees. Well-educated workers aren’t likely to relocate to an area where their kids will get a second class education.
The Range will always have iron mining, because it has the iron ore. But mining is not going to be a low-tech operation that provides a lot of opportunities for workers who have a high school education. And operations like Essar, which wants to not only mine but manufacture iron here, are going to take those operations elsewhere if they can’t find or attract the skilled workers they need.
All you have to do is look at the average age on the Range to understand the competitive reality. The kids who can compete are mostly leaving and not coming back. Because there are very few careers on the range. And the Range isn’t attracting a lot of young people from elsewhere.
Neither of those things are true of the Twin Cities. Yet their taxes are higher, they tend to have more regulation and they have stricter enforcement.
The complaints by struggling business people that its the “governments fault” are mostly excuses for their own incompetence. They want government to be run like they run their own failing business, where long term investments are sacrificed for immediate financial needs. That may be necessary for an under-capitalized small business trying to stave off failure. But we have the money, we inherited the richest country on earth. Its just a question whether we want to build on that inheritance for the future or squander it on big screen TV’s, snowmobiles, bass boats, marble kitchen countertops and leather car seats.
Ross Williams
I understand the dilemma with education. The problem is just as you stated and the conclusion of the Education Dept is the same as yours, it’s a huge cultural problem and we just can’t do nothing, so we’ll throw money at it. In the business world it’s called “throwing good money after bad”. Believe me I’ve done it, never has it worked.
The public good is not removed from public control yet, but the public good is by no means in the hands of our politicians. We do get the government we deserve and we’ve all been asleep at the wheel for years as an educated voting group.
The “new” inflation numbers we get now from Fed Govt don’t include food prices or energy costs….. so if you don’t eat, heat your house or drive, inflation is 1.7 up. By the way food is up 6%, heating oil up 40%, gas up 31% from last year. The government we deserve has decided “we the people” don’t need to know the facts on State/Fed debt, inflation numbers, how our government works, because we’re too stupid to understand. That’s insulting to me, hopefully to you also.
It’s as silly as ex House leader Pelosi saying “we have to pass the healthcare bill to find out what’s in it”. They treat us like idiots and it’s time to stand up and say NO, if not we will become a subject people.
Ross, in some Detroit school districts, the cost per student is the highest in the country around $18,000 per. Graduation rates didn’t improve and neither did student performance. Mounds View school district is about $8,500 per, graduation rates are 95% and scores/performance are way above national averages.
“In the business world it’s called “throwing good money after bad”. Believe me I’ve done it, never has it worked.”
There is not a problem in the world that is not easier to solve with more resources. If you have no other solution, this is basically an argument that we should just give up. And it has nothing to do with whether we can afford to give kids a better education. Its that we want to spend the money elsewhere.
But the real problem is that one about the “rich”. There are plenty of hard working people who are living hand-to-mouth. They really can’t afford to pay for a world quality education for their kids. So if we don’t tax the rich, we are going to be reduced to what the least of us can afford. And that isn’t going to be enough to compete in the world.
“Detroit school districts, the cost per student is the highest in the country around $18,000 per. “
And this proves what? This is a little like pointing out Control Data went bankrupt and Microsoft is making money. Do you really think its because Microsoft has a better handle on its expenses?
The argument is not that government never wastes money. No successful business can make that claim either. But the ones that give up spending money trying to meet critical needs eventually go out of business.
A business that decides to eliminate advertising because it isn’t producing enough customers, eventually doesn’t have any customers left. The answer for a successful business person is not to reduce the advertising, but to figure out how to spend the money better.
Again, this argument has legs on the range because it has an aging population that wants to live its life out. They aren’t thinking about the future and they aren’t willing to sacrifice to make the investments needed to create a thriving region.
In short, they just want to enjoy the rich inheritance left them by previous generations who were willing to sacrifice for the future. Future generations can take care of themselves.
What does $18,000 per show? It shows what we were talking about, money does not cure a cultural problem. Since the Education Dept came to be, scores and graduation rates have dropped….. Look it up it’s public record. If money helped the problem I’d say throw more at it, but unfortunately it doesn’t. Now you are left with an argument of “we can’t do nothing, so lets throw tax dollars at it”. That is why we are 14 trillion in debt.
Ross, can you answer a question for me? Before head start, no child left behind, no breakfast, lunch and dinner programs, race to the top and 100 other programs, American students had higher test scores, graduation rates and lead the world in education. HOW???
As far as taxing the evil rich how much is enough? 50%, 55% 60% 65%… all of it. The top 20% of income earners pay 75% of all taxes, that is not enough for you I take it?
This could go on and on, but the top 20 percent of earners would pay a significant portion of the total taxes because a significant portion of the actual wealth of the nation is concentrated up there among a relatively small number of people. We really can go on and on, but that’s what we’re talking about. Concentrated wealth is not a historically good thing. Not in the long run, anyway. I’m not saying “share the wealth” or socialism, which is always the counter on this observation. Rather, a series of policies that encourage organic growth of the middle class. Is such a set of policies easy or infallible? No. It is very hard to make work. But at key moments in our history, we’ve struck the right chord and made this happen, to the benefit of many, including myself.
“Before head start, no child left behind, no breakfast, lunch and dinner programs, race to the top and 100 other programs, American students had higher test scores, graduation rates.”
That isn’t true. In fact, school lunch programs were around for most of the 20th century.
“and lead the world in education”
The bar was lower. Its the 21st century now, universal education is becoming the rule. So are college degrees.
No one is arguing that kids with parents who are involved in their education aren’t easier and cheaper to educate. But that doesn’t mean we can or should just give up on all of them. The consequences for the future of the Range are too great. The reality is that if we don’t have the workforce, we aren’t going to be able to compete except against the bottom of the barrel.
“As far as taxing the evil rich how much is enough?”
Enough to pay for the quality public services, including education, we need and want. Those folks got rich by taking the opportunities provided by the richest country on earth. They can afford to pay to make those same opportunities available to future generations.
Aaron, I agree with you this could go on and on. I have to admit when I hear folks demean the successful, it bothers me. I’ve done pretty good for myself and what I inherited from my US Steel employed Dad was work hard, get an education and strive to be successful in whatever you chose to do. I did that and folks want to demean that….. Really????
He also taught me to fend for myself and not to worry what other people had, be happy with what you worked for. That was the America of my youth, not the “eat the rich, I need mine” America of 2011.
Lake Country, the scores are lower today than before the Dept of Education came on the scene. I went to school in the 60’s, we had a reduced lunch for those of us who needed it. That was the only program I remember. Where are you getting your facts from?
” I’m not saying “share the wealth” or socialism, which is always the counter on this observation.”
Paying taxes has nothing to do with socialism. If it did, every country in history was socialist. We have had taxes since the country’s founding. We have also had the folks who don’t want to pay them. One of George Washington’s first actions as president was to lead the US Army against the whiskey rebellion, the t-party of his day.
“I did that and folks want to demean that….. Really???? “
I guess, if its “demeaning” to point out the obvious. Had you been born in another country, your opportunities for education and rewards for hard work would have produced a lot less. The country you inherited produced most of your wealth. You apparently think it is unreasonable to ask you to use some of that wealth to pay it back and give the next generation the same opportunities.
That is why I believe America is special place. We are all blessed to have been born here. Are you suggesting America owes the world Her wealth?
” I went to school in the 60’s, we had a reduced lunch for those of us who needed it”
Actually I doubt it. I think everyone’s school lunch in the 60’s was subsidized. We also didn’t have to pay fees to play sports, orchestra, band … The idea that “kids today have it better” is as old as the ages.
“Are you suggesting America owes the world Her wealth?”
No, I’m suggesting you owe your wealth to America and shouldn’t begrudge the need to spend some of it keeping the country a special place that provides the same opportunities for future generations that you took advantage of.
Wow, so you’re saying it’s not my money but America’s money. The reason the pilgrams, then the Founders came here was to worship God the way they wanted, to own land and aquire wealth. They left a country that felt all wealth belonged to England.
You are a redistribute the wealth person, I take it.
“Wow, so you’re saying it’s not my money but America’s money”
No, I am saying that you shouldn’t begrudge the taxes you are asked to pay to create the kind of country that helped you make all that money.
We aren’t talking about “redistributing the wealth”. We are talking about you paying your fair share based on the benefits you got from living here. Just the way previous generations sacrificed to create the country you inherited.
You obviously don’t agree.
As for the founders,they were pretty clear about the responsibility of people to pay taxes. Washington took up arms against people who agreed with you that they shouldn’t have to pay taxes.
Per K Edwards, “Mining, plus servicing the mines has to lead our way out…. Then add an environment where business men can succeed and we’ll be on our way.”
Chiming in as a woman and a newcomer to this region, it’s time to go beyond this thinking that mining and men take precedence around here.
>Chiming in as a woman and a newcomer to this region, it’s time to go beyond this thinking that mining and men take precedence around here.
Chiming in as a sentient being anyone who thinks that success in a remote area with mineral wealth doesn’t involve mining is kidding themselves.
The comment about men taking precedence is weird.
It’s not very often that I get a chance to talk to a true believer in redistribute the wealth, like Lake country. Very interesting…..
Tax history, briefly, from 1791-1802 no income taxes for Americans. Congress used internal taxes on distilled spirits, refined sugar, tobacco and property sold on auctions. In 1812, a tariff on imported goods was added to pay for the War of 1812. In 1862 the 1st income tax was put in to pay for Civil war, earners between $600-$10,000 paid 3%. It was voted out by citizens in 1872. In 1913 the 16th Amendment came in to make taxes permanent. Government has exploded since then.
So to the point that we’ve taxed the citizens of the United States forever is just not true.
This conversation started on money to education and diversifying the Range, 2 big problems. Every problem CAN’T be solved by more resources being thrown at them. Look at the welfare programs, the more money we’ve thrown at them, from the 60’s on, the bigger they’ve grown and more folks entered the programs, not less as proclaimed by politicians. My point is if we rely on elected officials to get us out of our rut here on the Range, we’ll be in the same boat we’ve been in for 40 years up here. We need to demand accountability for every penny spent up here. If “we the people”, don’t demand more from our politicians, then we deserve the politicians we have.
I’ll let you folks settle the education debate for america, but let me suggest you focus a bit on where your resources are going…out of your community. (At least education dollars spent on teachers stay.)
Mining companies tend to be owned by multinational corporations, meaning in exchange for a few dozen decent paying jobs, you are enriching people who will never place even single step into the northwoods…they care nothing for you or your problems and they care nothing for the problems they leave behind like polluted lakes and streams–which is your real resource, the one you truly value and need to exist in this cold world.
So, think long and hard before you invite them back into your community about what rules should they be bound to and what they should leave behind.
How much money and education will you need if your land and water are useless when they leave?
“So to the point that we’ve taxed the citizens of the United States forever is just not true. “
Tell that to the business people who you paid the taxes on “whiskey, sugar and property sold.” And their customers who paid a higher price as result.
Certainly taxes have changed over the years, but as the saying goes, “There are two things certain in the world, death and taxes”. To pretend otherwise is frankly engaging in self-delusion.
As for “it was voted out by citizens in 1872” – how exactly did that happen? We don’t vote on anything, we elect representatives to do that. Congress passed the income tax amendment and then two thirds of the state legislatures passed it. If citizens “voted out” any tax in 1872, they certainly “voted” for the income tax by a far wider margin.
This claim is also wrong:
“look at the welfare programs, the more money we’ve thrown at them, from the 60’s on, the bigger they’ve grown and more folks entered the programs”
Actually, the number of people on welfare has declined over the last 20 years. And the result of the programs starting in the 1960’s was a dramatic reduction in poverty and increasing upward mobility for those born to poor families.
Frankly, I think you are just making stuff up or believe whatever stuff you see on TV.
“Every problem CAN’T be solved by more resources being thrown at them.”
You are right. We will all die sometime and no amount of money will prevent it. But there are a lot of problems that are more easily and better solved with more resources. And very few, if any, that are solved more easily with less.
“We need to demand accountability for every penny spent up here.”
I agree entirely. There is plenty of money that is wasted on boondoggles with the money ending up in the pocket of some crony of politicians. That ought to stop. Not because the money isn’t needed, but because it IS needed elsewhere and it shouldn’t be wasted.
But we seem to a dearth of suggestions for doing that. Instead, the “solution” seems to be that we give up doing anything. Its a classic “baby with the bathwater” solution.
“It’s not very often that I get a chance to talk to a true believer in redistribute the wealth”
Given this definition of “redistribute the wealth” it seems every business believes in it, they expect their customers to “redistribute their wealth” in exchange for goods and services. I have met a lot of people who believe in getting something for nothing. Any requirement that they pay for the benefits they get is “redistributing” their wealth.
They just aren’t willing to give future generations the same opportunities they were given. At least not if it costs them anything.
Its a classic case of wanting benefits without burdens. Its an epidemic among the spoiled generation of the 60’s who had their opportunities handed to them as a birthright. They conveniently forget the struggle required by their parent’s generation to provide those opportunities.
>>Mining companies tend to be owned by multinational corporations, meaning in exchange for a few dozen decent paying jobs, you are enriching people who will never place even single step into the northwoods
Which means a substantial infusion of outside money into the local economy. Having ownership that gets a tear in the eye when they think the word “Ranger” would be lovely but I’ll settle for the cash.
The other point regarding the environment would be more meaningful if someone was advocating letting them come in and do what they want without standards but in the present environment nobody is advocating that so your point is of the “Reds under the bed” variety.
Mike –
While I agree that we need to make sure the environment is protected. I don’t think the iron mining companies are ever going to leave, at least not in foreseeable centuries. Chances are there will be mine-able iron ore available for many generations. We may reach the point where we have all the iron we need, but I doubt it.
But there are mineral resources that are a lot more limited. The copper-nickel resources are probably not going to last forever. Once they are gone, any jobs created to extract them will be gone with them. Every job created for this generation takes a job from someone in the future. We ought to make sure that we have and use mining technology that leaves all the rest of our natural resources unharmed. And if that doesn’t pencil out in today’s economy, it will eventually.
In other words, unless its clear mining won’t permanently damage our wild rice crop, we shouldn’t risk it for short term benefits. In the case of the proposed Polymet operation those benefits are only supposed to last 20 years. We can wait until it can be done without damaging the environment.
But again, this requires current generations to think not only of themselves, but of future generations.
“Which means a substantial infusion of outside money into the local economy.”
One of the problems with a lot of the “economic development” process is that it ignores this distinction. There is a big difference between a business that brings money into the region by selling products/services outside it and the local business that just competes with other local businesses for the money already here.
When you invest in building new office buildings and industrial parks, you are just building competition for existing office buildings and industrial land. It does nothing to stimulate the local economy. Sure, the folks that build the new building make some money. But that same money spent elsewhere would have had a bigger impact.
Of course within the Range there is also competition between communities. So that new restaurant in Grand Rapids may attracts some of its business from restaurants as far away as Hibbing. That makes the restaurant a income generator for Grand Rapids, but an income loser for competing restaurants elsewhere.
One of the things that has changed, that Aaron eludes to, is that the Range is really becoming a single economic entity. If my memory is correct, Grand Rapids has almost 15,000 jobs and less than 5000 residents employed in those jobs. Of course, some Grand Rapids residents are employed elsewhere as well. We really are one city, one market with more common interest than competitive conflicts.
Believe me I was a liberal in the 60’s and 70’s. I wanted no war, money for everyone, equal opportunity for all with equal outcome for all, free education, tax the rich, help the poor. I grew older and found out all the things my Dad told me were true. There is no free lunch, he who works hardest eventually does the best and sleeps peacefully, the world is not fair, you can’t control others, you can’t help those who don’t want to be helped….. I think it is called growing up.
For those against mining and worried about copper mines ruining the land, what businesses are going to replace those mining/service mines jobs? Do you expect businesses that can build a plant anywhere in the world to come to the Range? Minnesota is in the top 10, as States LEAST business friendly.
Lake Country,
The only dip in folks using the welfare programs came for a short period of time when Speaker Newt Gingrich lead and President Bill Clinton signed a welfare reform bill. Remember those beautiful words by Clinton “the era of big government is over”. Sadly, the reforms that were put in place were lifted by the “caring Dems”, and we now have more people on Govt assistance in 2011 than at anytime in American history. Most folks want jobs not handouts. Those who want handouts can’t be helped, because they won’t help themselves.
“There is no free lunch,”
You already ate your free lunch and now its time to close the lunch counter? Now you don’t want to have to pay anything to leave the same opportunities and benefits you received.
” I think it is called growing up. “
I think its called never growing up. It was easy to be for things that cost you nothing. You don’t want to go to war, don’t have any money and are receivinga free education? All for them! Now, you have money and you just want to keep it. You wanted everything for free when you had nothing, now you don’t want to pay anything to make the opportunities the country gave you available to the next generation.
“Do you expect businesses that can build a plant anywhere in the world to come to the Range?”
They will if you make it attractive to them.
“he who works hardest eventually does the best”
Do you really think folks in other countries make less money because they are all lazy? Of course you don’t. This is just willful ignorance, pretending that the country has given you nothing so you have no responsibility (that adult concept) for giving anything back.
How are you going to make it attractive to companies to come to the Range?
A lot of the problem here seems to be accepting at face value the “information” heard on TV.
“The only dip in folks using the welfare programs came for a short period of time”
There was a 60% drop in the number of people on welfare after the 1996 welfare reform bill passed.
“we now have more people on Govt assistance in 2011 than at anytime in American history. “
Perhaps when you consider unemployment, social security and medicare government assistance.
None of those are paid for with income tax. These are all paid by payroll taxes. The employer pays most of them but they are ultimately part of the cost of hiring someone.
The point of unemployment insurance it to cover you if you are unemployed. Apparently collecting on that insurance is now “welfare”.
How would you make it attractive to businesses to come to the Range?
How do you attract companies? By having a educated, skilled work force. By creating 21st century communications infrastructure. By making our communities attractive places to live. By welcoming innovation and change.
The region has three natural resources. Minerals, forests and lakes. The forests and lakes make this an attractive area to live.
That should keep young people and attract them from elsewhere. But the lack of career opportunities here is creating the opposite effect. Young people are moving away and not coming back. Its not a lack of jobs, its a lack of careers for people who are ambitious and creative.
And when ambitious creative people all leave, its tough to attract ambitious, creative companies. What is needed is a commitment and effort to break that vicious circle.
There is no magic bullet, but there are plenty or reasons a company would locate on the Range. The trick is to find the right match and then build new business clusters around the businesses that fit.
But never mind. That might cost money. And that new bass boat .. snowmobile … countertops … retirement all beckon.
Does making a profit for the company fit into your plan for Range development or is the beauty of looking at trees and lakes going to pay the loan the entrepreneur took out to start business?
Who said anything about entrepreneurs or loans? I thought we were talking about attracting going businesses instead of giving some guy with a bright idea and political connections a leg up on local competition.
For instance, servicing mines doesn’t create any jobs. The mines create the jobs because they need the service. Someone is going to have a job doing it whether the service company is profitable or not.
If we want to attract “traded sector” businesses, then they need to be able to compete with the rest of the world, just like the mining companies do. That is an entirely different set of demands than taking out a loan, setting up shop and calling yourself an “entrepreneur”. And then blaming taxes and government when you can’t make a go of it.
Attracting real job producers beyond resource extraction is not going to be easy. But the alternative is that the Range slowly shrinks as the mines employ fewer and fewer people to take out the same amounts of resources.
Essar’s steel production is a good example of how to start. They are here because of the availability of taconite, but they could ship that taconite anywhere and the steel production jobs with it.
On the other hand, what industries might make use of that steel here? If I understand it, probably not many. But there may be some company out there that would locate a manufacturing operation on the Range to have easy access to the steel Essar produces. But if they have to import a skilled workforce and pay a premium to get them to stay here, that isn’t likely to happen.
How do think businesses get started? Do they just pop up or does a business man, small or large, make an investment in a shop, building or office? The business man will then either run his shop himself or hire employees. Newsflash…… That cost money that the business man will borrow and have to pay back. Who do think pays the start up costs for any business?
The only employee that doesn’t care about profits is the Federal Government because they start up the program/company with our money.
that is why we’re talking loans…. I take it you’ve never started a business and made payroll for your company and it’s employees.
“How do think businesses get started?”
Again, who said anything about staring businesses? The question was what would attract businesses here.
If you are talking about some local entrepreneur starting a business, then starting it here is probably a given. We don’t need to do anything to “attract” them, they just need to find an opportunity and business model that works.
“The only employee that doesn’t care about profits …”
You seem to have missed the point. If you are providing a service locally, whether that particular company makes a profit is irrelevant to the whether the jobs you create exist. If they can’t make money at it, someone else will and they will create those same jobs doing it. Of course, they may be able to make a profit because they can do it more efficiently at lower cost with fewer employees.
You seem to think its the governments fault if a business can’t make a profit. Even when there is a profitable competitor providing the same service.
I’m missing your logic. We are talking creating jobs on the Range aren’t we? It sounds like you are talking adding etra jobs to existing businesses. If the Range is banking on just adding jobs to survive, pack your bags and go south. We need the new jobs copper mining will create and the service jobs also created.
The part of not making a profit not being important also confuses me. I will assume you’ve never ran a business and are under 35 years old.
“We are talking creating jobs on the Range aren’t we? “
Well that explains a lot. You asked what would attract businesses to the Range.
“I am missing your logic”
To understand, you have to actually try to follow the conversation.
You can just respond to the closest pre-established narrative that sounds familiar.
It sounds to me like you think businesses are entitled to make a profit and if they don’t it must be governments’ fault. I don’t agree.
” I will assume you’ve never ran a business and are under 35 years old.”
And you once again would be wrong, by a long shot.
“How are you going to make it attractive to go to the range?”
In my understanding, it is only attractive to go to the range for 3 reasons–
–hunting
–fishing
–mining
If you hold out for a better deal from these mining multinationals, will they leave without the ore and the ore will disappear?
There is only one way they will leave, when the ore is gone. And if you get desperate for a short-term job and let them pollute your land and water in the process, then you lose your hunting and fishing. Then what will attract business to the range?
That is not lefty-liberal talk, that is just thinking long-term and tough negotiating strategy.
I urge you to toughen up your negotiatons. If they step away because you are firm with them–that’s fine–you still have good hunting and fishing and they’ll be back, because you have something they want. They are the needy ones, not you folks.
Mike –
While I agree with your point about tough negotiating, I think this is plain wrong:
“it is only attractive to go to the range for 3 reasons–
–hunting
–fishing
–mining”
Unfortunately it is widely believed by older Rangers who have not paid attention to the changes happening in the rest of the world. Hunting and fishing are no longer the primary recreational activities they once were. Mining, hunting and fishing coexist quite easily. So does the forest products industry, a clearcut is actually better deer habitat than an old forest.
But the attraction of the Range for a lot of other activities is endangered by poor environmental controls. Its not that mining and forestry can’t coexist with those other uses, its that tougher environmental regulation is required to maintain the balance between them.
I actually think mining is less a threat to the Range than sprawling development. Towns are starting to look like Twin Cities suburbs in various states of decay with suburban commercial strips and a lot of new rural residential development around them.
While any rural area is going to be somewhat auto-dependent, small towns have traditionally been pedestrian, bike and kid friendly. That is a selling point for many people now and should be a selling point for businesses who want to attract skilled employees. But older residents of Range communities seem to be determined to catch up with the 20th century by building suburbs, while the 21st century passes them by.
Point taken LCB. In full disclosure, I’ve never hunted northern MN (I hunt WI, my motherland), but I have canoed the BWCA, xc skied all across northern MN, and bike toured the range and north shore. None of that I would have done if the land and waters were polluted.
I too have experienced city sprawl taking away local trout streams and bird hunting opportunities and left behind empty downtowns as the Walmart-like malls paves these little paradises in the name of progress.
The range is not alone in making short-sighted decisions in the name of economic development–but it is blessed in being far enough away to be less spoiled…so far.
I’m only urging range citizens to think longterm before losing their resources in these pursuits.
i will sleep much better tonight knowing the problems that face the Range are: urban sprawl, we’re not bike friendly enough, evil mining companies and not high enough taxes. It’s also comforting to know businesses don’t have worry about profits any longer and creating an environment to attract businesses doesn’t mean jobs…… Good night fellow rangers…
Once we get somebody else to pay for high speed interent to put us on a level playing field with the cities, we’ll be fine…
I heard Dayton is pushing for a Cash for Copper Cable program.
Mike –
What interesting is that anyone who has heard the concerns in the forest products industry with the fragmentation of forestland knows they are at least as worried about ex-urban development as committed environmentalists. Folks who grow trees as a crop tend to have long time frames for their concerns.
It may be that time frames, not left and right wing ideology, is what really divides us as a people. There are those who think in terms of the future and those for whom the future is today.
It will be decades before we get the full return on an investment in early childhood education. Or an investment in k-9 education. It will be decades before the full impact of mining pollution will transform the local environment. It will be decades before our small towns fully decay.
The real challenge we face is how to get people to go back to planning for the future. We need to be willing to sacrifice short term benefits for future generations and posterity. That’s what built this country and particularly the Range. But its tough with so many people whose immediate future is retirement.
There is a saying that the “definition of hope is an old man planting a tree”. We need to convince the baby boomers that we still need to plant shade trees even though they will be dead or in nursing homes before they produce any shade.
Increasing mobility, better communications and the emergence of a world economy means that great, attractive places to live are going to get the careers and jobs.
If you want to look for examples. Detroit kept its short-sighted focus as the auto industry died and is now an empty hole. Portland OR, faced with a declining timber industry and population in the early 80’s, invested in the future and it is now a thriving high tech destination for young people from all over the country. The Range is neither Portland nor Detroit, but the message is the same. Plan for the future, not the past.
LCB..
“The real challenge we face is how to get people to go back to planning for the future. We need to be willing to sacrifice short term benefits for future generations and posterity. That’s what built this country and particularly the Range”?? You’re mis-informed.
What built the Range of the past was business investment (mining, timber & railroads)from back East, not the masses of immigrants “sacrificing short term benefits for future posterity”.
The masses came to the Range because there were jobs. The masses didn’t create the jobs nor were they sitting around “planning for the future”. They were working.
>>We need to be willing to sacrifice short term benefits for future generations and posterity.
We call that “home-schooling.”
“What built the Range of the past was business investment “
Right, instead of buying more luxury goods in New York or building another vacation house, they invested their money in the future. But it was hardly just the mining companies that did that. The Range was built by a lot of people, including people who came and built their own business. Or just raised a family and gave their kids an education.
“The masses came to the Range because there were jobs.”
Those people picked up and moved to the range from Europe for a better life both present and future. Its hard to understand how someone thinks that decision required no sacrifice. And they came to take the opportunities the investments here had created. Sometimes that was a job working for someone else, sometimes that was an investment in building their own business.
There is little doubt the Range was built on the backs of the mines. Just as Detroit was built by the auto industry. Times change and the mining industry is unlikely to ever again provide thousands of jobs for kids fresh out of high school. Looking at it as the sole basis for the Range’s future is looking straight down a dead end.
“We call that “home-schooling.”
The reason we need to invest in early childhood education is that we have plenty of kids whose parents have neither the time, knowledge nor inclination to “home school” even at the pre-school level. There are an awful lot of people who don’t have the knowledge, resources or ability to give their kids a 21st century education.
>>There are an awful lot of people who don’t have the knowledge, resources or ability to give their kids a 21st century education.
About 98% of parents have the capability if they are prepared to work hard and care.
How hard can it be to do better than the current schooling system where students are doing worse (score wise) than 25 years ago. Can you Imagine how impossible it was to learn without an Education Dept? How did students, 25 years ago, learn without a Federal “race to the the top”/”no child left behind”/”equal education” policy, students actually went to school without a Federal “No Bullying” program, how? To think those students, 25 years ago, actually learned reading, writing and math not modern living skills and sex education but were still able to lead the world in test scores. Just boggles the old mind. If you are a parent and can’t out do the current school system, you shouldn’t be a parent!!!!
Immigrants came to the Northwoods to sacrifice for the future…… Funny, my grandparents came here for a job. I’m sure they were the exception.
“About 98% of parents have the capability if they are prepared to work hard and care.”
And if they aren’t?
This isn’t some theoretical discussion. Go someplace where everyone only knows what their parents can teach them. Those places are poor as dirt. And part of the reason is that those kids, taught that way, can’t produce very much.
I don’t think most people on the Range want to live that way. I sure don’t. And the ones who do, keep to themselves in the backwoods.
>>And if they aren’t?
If parents aren’t willing to work hard and they don’t care there is a very severe limit on what a public school teacher can do to help those children, no matter how much money you throw at the problem.
” there is a very severe limit on what a public school teacher can do to help those children, no matter how much money you throw at the problem.”
The facts don’t back you up. Kids who participate in early childhood education programs do much better than their peers. In fact, they can do better with more resources.
“Funny, my grandparents came here for a job. I’m sure they were the exception.”
I don’t know if they were the exception. But they sure weren’t the people who left behind a better life for those who followed. That was done by the folks who invested for the future.
The folks who planted those shade trees knew they would never sit in the shade themselves. But they did it anyway.
” students are doing worse (score wise) than 25 years ago.”
Is that true? Are they really giving kids the same tests with the same questions and same answers as 25 years ago. If true, that would explain a lot about the quality of our education system.
But I doubt its true. I suspect this is just another one of those urban myths people who watch too much TV believe and keep repeating over and over.
But even assuming it was. What are you going to do about it? The answer appears to be nothing. We should give up and accept our inevitable decline. We should just enjoy the good life handed to us as our birthright and not worry about the next generation. They can fend for themselves.
David,
You’ve got to understand the “entitlement mentality”, it doesn’t make any difference if it’s been proven that throwing money at education doesn’t work. To hold a parent responsible or to expect a 16 year old to get good grades, reduces an element of the shift the blame game the folks who throw their problems on everyone else plays. They love to say “I’d do better if: it wasn’t for those evil banks…. the govt did more for me…. the govt taxed the rich more….. school’s had more money… my union was stronger…. I grew up in a big town…… I grew up in a small town”. It goes on and on
There is no personal responsibility taken by this group of people. The reason it’s so hard for most of us to understand this is, we were raised to take responsibility for our selves. Sadly, that is being replaced by Govt or someone else has to do more for me mentality.
Hi Aaron:
Totally random comment, but …
Wow … 55 comments and you didn’t even have to say, “Oberstar” : )
Craziness!
Amy
Well summarized K…
I’ve never witnessed a liberal take personal responsibility. When they’re accustumed to living in part off of other people’s money, they obviously link their shortcomings to the not getting enough of other peoples money…
Well Aaron, I guess I’m seeing the problem you must be facing…personal responsibility is the answer to everything. And letting companies come in and do whatever they need to do to provide some jobs. And those 2% who can’t accept schooling, they should just go somewhere else or die.
Sure, that’s how it worked in grandpa’s time, right? Problems…gramps never faced a problem he couldn’t solve himself.
Sounds like Peter Pan or some fairy tale, not the history I read…things like Political Prairie Fire, because that’s how my grandpa got things done for MY future, and I didn’t learn it in school or conveniently forget it.
“Political Prairie Fire” >> Tea Party…welcome aboard Mike!
Mike, it might not have been the history you read, but for some of us who lived it, it’s the reality we SAW. The original Rangers worked prior to unions and banned together to get things done. When I was young our neighbors helped my Dad build a garage, that help was returned by us in helping out our neighbors every chance we had.
Believe it or not, we were taught to help one another, not with money (short supply of that), but with our sweat and support during tough times. My Gramps faced many problems he couldn’t solve himself, he got help from friends and family. If the problem couldn’t be solved by them, we did the unthinkable, we did without. The order was pay bills 1st, food for family 2nd, anything left over, put it away for a rainy day 3rd, 4th was whatever was left. I never heard my Gramps or Dad blame anything on Govt or country. My Dad fought in WWII and his philosophy was God, family, country. I know that’s so “not today” but it pushed this region to be the steel producer for the world.
Mike, if you’ve been raised to blame your problems on every one else and complain because someone else has more than you, I don’t expect you to understand.
>>And those 2% who can’t accept schooling, they should just go somewhere else or die.
Odd comment.
I’ve got lots of opinions about all this, but I’ve just got to say I love all you guys/gals. This thread is like a bar where when you leave and come back a few days later the same people are there, still arguing about the same stuff. It’s comforting in some strange way. Kudos for your diligence!
I am too weary to share more. I dare not reignite anything. 🙂
Tea party…don’t mis-label me. Google it…Political Prairie Fire was about the Non-Partisan League. Non-partisan.
And why are you guys just lobbing criticism at Aaron, etc. Is that how Grandpa got his barn raised, by a bunch of folks sitting back and whining about entitlements and taxes? The easiest thing in the world is to say NO, second easiest is to take your ball and go home.
You folks need to start getting along, find the common ground and shape your ideas into consensus. You should be proud of Aaron, he’s a smart guy and cares about the north, he’s an asset to your community.
If he has something he can learn from you all (and why wouldn’t he?), then you need to convince him you are on the same side–the side that wants the range to be better for all.
Sorry for the speechifying…I’ll be quiet now.
I love Aaron…… Just don’t agree with a couple of the statements made by others on this site. Thanks for the work Aaron, its fun for me to argue points with true believers in big Govt.
OK Mike…I’ll help Aaron add a room onto his house….or build a storage shed, really.
Now, let’s see how long I have to wait until he offers ANY solution which takes less of my hard earned wage.
Oh, by the way..there are no GOP or DFL signs at Tea Party events…nor are there any closed fist signs.
“ANY solution which takes less of my hard earned wage.”
That pretty much sums it up. anything. All the rest is just foofrah to convince people the problems aren’t real or nothing will work to solve them.
It also explains how the politicians get away with “cutting taxes” when all they are really just deferring the taxes til later. The assumption is by the time the bill comes, the next generation will have to pick up the tab plus interest. The folks who got he “tax cut” will be retired or dead.
Aaron –
I can’t imagine anyone wading through all this. There is nothing informative about it.
What is sad is that someone on the Range would have to go back to their grandparents for an example of people helping one another out. Its not like that stopped happening 50 years ago.
Mike –
There have always been right wing nut cases on the Range. They aren’t really at all representative of the area. Rangers in general are conservative by city standards, but they are fully committed to their communities. In fact, that fierce allegiance to one another is one of the characteristics that makes them conservative.
Lake Country, again you missed the point. Our Grandparents didn’t wait around for Govt to help them they did it themselves. By the way welfare money went up from 522 billion to 697 billion in 09. So much for your theory of smaller welfare numbers lately. Just another mistake don’t sweat it.
As I thought…still waiting..
“let’s see how long I have to wait until he offers ANY solution which takes less of my hard earned wage.”
“As I thought…still waiting..”
You want something for nothing. Typically baby boomer. We love “tax cuts”, even when they are put on our credit card to be paid later with interest.
“let’s see how long I have to wait until he offers ANY solution which takes less of my hard earned wage.”
“As I thought…still waiting..”
You want something for nothing. Typically baby boomer. We love “tax cuts”, even when they are put on our credit card to be paid later with interest.